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Hi Folks,
Just recently I started thinking about how I could Green up my woodshop. We had installed CFLs (Compact Flourescent Lightbulbs) in most of the house and I thought I'd give them a try in the woodshop.
Prior to the conversion, I had 8 40watt 4' flourescent fixtures that were consuming 320 watts of electric power and the way I had them wired they were all on whenever I was having fun (working?) in the woodshop. I was confident that I could nearly halve that conspicuous consumption.
And with some rework of the wiring and employment of some switches that I had from some previous remodeling I went to work. This would allow me to zone the woodshop in terms of lighting. This way I wouldn't need all of them on all the time.
Because CFLs don't give off as much light as the old fixtures I had to employ more fixtures but because I zoned work areas in the woodshop overall, I am using a lot less electricity.
So tell me, what have you done to Goreize your woodshop? No I don't mean because you're using less you can now consume more!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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(post #116470, reply #1 of 65)
Bob,
I don't know if I can afford to green up at the cost of those bulbs. I've put them where I could in the house and some in the shop. So far over $400.00 in bulbs. (house and shop). Most of the shop is regular fluorescence. Every single one, GE, Phillips, house brands have burned out WAY before hours stated. They go, in some cases, faster than incandescent. They seem to go faster in the shop. (no machines on those circuits). The last two, 40w on and off-3 months and two months for 75w- all ways on. It could be those little slots at the base(ballast) get filled with micro dust but whatever the reason, I'm not going down that road again for a while. Before someone jumps in, it's not the line voltages ( I have had it checked and if anything it's about 2-3% low and it's not the way they have been burning i.e. base -up, base- down, closed in or open burning. They just quit.
It could be surge, but we have it like everyone else-- occasionally, but does that mean I have to have a whole house surge system or a protector for each light? It's just a bulb and at this stage I think the companies are having the customers pay for the QC as production and real world manufacturing (China) problems are worked out.
I don't think manufacturing has caught up with marketing as far as QC
True, it could still be something in my system but I'm so over them for the moment.
BB
(post #116470, reply #2 of 65)
How Green is Your Woodshop?
I have moss on the doors?
Have a great day.. Life is wonderful even if you are having a bad day!
(post #116470, reply #17 of 65)
Will,
Ahhh, been a bit lax with the leaf blower lately? :-)
Must be a North facing part of the woodshop. I'd let that rooster see if can remedy the situation for ye.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #16 of 65)
BB,
Wow, that's not consistent with our experience, so far. We've had CFLs installed in the house for a while now and have had only one break so far - stupid move on my part. :_(
Anyway, the ones in the house get turned on/off quite frequently but so far have had no problems. I put some in the new air lock entry I just built and the only thing I've noticed so far is that there is a delay between flicking the switch when they actually illuminate. But it is cold out there so am thinking that has something to do with it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #30 of 65)
Some of the CFLs that I got have that delay. The later ones don't have that delay. Must be a difference in the CFL.
(post #116470, reply #49 of 65)
I know where your coming from with the 4' tubes. Short life span! My dad has lights in his garage and the tubes are 25 years old, for real!
I have longer life using fixtures saved from remodel jobs. These fixtures might be 20 years old.
I'm getting tired being sold junk where ever its made!
Personally, I dont like (post #116470, reply #61 of 65)
Personally, I dont like flourescents. especially with rotating machinery. Flourescents have a tendency to create a strobe effect, which can convince the user that the machine is not running when it is.
I used 24 overhead keyless fixtures for lighting. All wired on a 3-wire Edison. Or 12 per circuit and so that when they are all on there is zero current returning on the neutral. All 100 watt incandescents. If you happen to break one you have only glass to clean up. These CFL's contain Murcury and standard flourescents are just as bad.
Even the new CFL's have a transformer/Ballast in them which is why it takes time for them to turn on the transformer must be fluxed first before the bulb can work. And these bulbs my only use 10-14 watts real power, they use upwards of 38-45 Volt-Amps reactive power, which you are still paying for but is returned to the company. Motors are the same way they too use reactive Power which you are paying for but is returned to the power company...its the nature of the beast. For best results , Use the highest Voltage availble, residential would be 240 volts.
(post #116470, reply #3 of 65)
Zoning the lighting is a good idea, so that only those areas actually needed are lit, thereby saving electricity. I'm not sure I'd consider either CFLs or regular florescent tubes as "green", however, since both need to be disposed of as hazmat items due to mercury content.
(post #116470, reply #12 of 65)
I have wondered if they could or do reclaim and reuse the mercury from those bulbs.
(post #116470, reply #15 of 65)
I'm not sure what the recycling/hazmat centers do with them. They might end up in the same place as lost single socks.
(post #116470, reply #40 of 65)
I have wondered if they could or do reclaim and reuse the mercury from those bulbs.
LOL LOL.. You do not get rid of it!
When I bought my house. Late 1960's early 1970's.. Yes been here all these years.
I found all sorts of VERY dangerous chemicals. Nobody believed me untill I brought a pound or so of Strychnine to the police department. And many other very dangerous poisons. The man than I bought the house from was a florest and owned a green? house. He died before I bought the house. I never had an issue with it because I knew his wife. A little old lady from Denmark that loved the local children.. She was God Sent.. I am SURE she had no idea what was around the place.. And even if she did I am sure SHE had nothing to do with it!
They took it all except for a small bottle of (The little bottle of Listerine at the time). Not sure what ounce bottle but very heavy filled with Mercury! I was forced to keep it! And now I have no idea where I hid it!
Edited 11/20/2008 7:30 pm by WillGeorge
Have a great day.. Life is wonderful even if you are having a bad day!
(post #116470, reply #53 of 65)
Home depot will take CF and fluorescent bulbs for recycling.
(post #116470, reply #54 of 65)
But I was wondering if they can or do recycle the stuff.
Edited 11/23/2008 7:51 pm ET by Tinkerer3
(post #116470, reply #55 of 65)
Yes. They recycle the mercury. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/business/24recycling.html
(post #116470, reply #18 of 65)
Hi Ralph,
I hear ye about the hazmat deal but at least we're a lot more cognizant of the issues with these materials today.
Knowing that these can be hazardous materials at least one can hope that they are handled properly and not end up in the landfills as before.
It's a slow process but I think we're gaining on it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #26 of 65)
Agreed. Even considering the mercury in CFLs (about 4mg/bulb), they still represent a significant gain when compared to coal-fired electrical plants (which put a surprising amount of mercury vapor into the air). And, if the CFLs are handled correctly, that gain is even greater. If only wind turbines were less ugly, and more affordable.
(post #116470, reply #27 of 65)
Hi Ralph,
If only wind turbines were less ugly, and more affordable.
Yeah, that's kinda in my mind since the energy tax credit days. That saved me a bundle in costs to build a solar addition for our previous house, not to mention the savings in heating.
It was great having Sunday morning coffee in shorts and teeshirt whilst it was 10° outside and the wind blowing. Sumthin to be said for comfort too.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/17/2008 3:48 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #39 of 65)
"I hear ye about the hazmat deal but at least we're a lot more cognizant of the issues with these materials today."
We may be, but the good folks who made these bulbs generally aren't. I use these bulbs too. Our dollars support their filthy manufacturing methods and human rights abuses to boot.
I'm also not convinced they are better or greener than incandescent bulbs. I probably have the greenest shop on this forum. I routinely work wood with 0 electricity. And while it's good to conserve, I think the whole green thing has been coopted by politicians. It's a stick they use to hit each other. I think it's going to become the tool they use to balance trade deficits in lieu of import tariffs- kinda like how the europeans boycott our beef. They say it's a hormone thing, but I think it's just a subsidy for their ranchers.
I heard a guy on NPR say that we'd be better off (enviromentally) if we drank each day's coffee from a styrofoam cup. The (carbon) cost of manufacturing, shipping, warehousing, selling and washing a ceramic mug in a dishwasher is much higher. Okay, I give up. When the toxic avenger is greener than the mug in my cupboard, something is rigged.
I like working by hand. I don't do it to save the planet. But if you want to cut down on your electricity bill, your gym membership, and avoid the quadruple bypass, how about surfacing your stock by hand once in awhile? Mortise chisels do a perfectly adequate job, as do rabbet planes and hand saws.
Adam
BTW Bob, I'm using the impersonal "you" above. This is good thing to think about and I know you do some of your work by hand.
Edited 11/20/2008 9:08 pm ET by AdamCherubini
(post #116470, reply #41 of 65)
Adam,
Your words have a lot of truth to them but my motive(s) are not of a political nature but rather matters of economy and conservation of resources.
As to the politics thang, well let's just say that I feel the reason(s) we are buying from them might just have something to do with our own politicians greed mebbe? It is sad that those who are actually making them don't have a clue as to what is really going on. Not sure that I do either.
Oh, and I will be installing two skylights in the woodshop, right over the hand tool bench. But that will have to wait till warmer weather gets here.
As to hand milling my stock all I can tell you is that those rhitis boys are a nasty lot and that fella Arthur is the worst. Heavy planing is no longer the source of enjoyment that it once was.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/20/2008 9:43 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #42 of 65)
I like your question. Hope my answer wasn't too emphatic.
We've been talking about electricity, and saw dust, what about finishes or chemicals? I recently bought a gallon jug of WD-40. I decant that into a plastic squirt bottle. Don't know if the spray can is ripping a hole in the ozone layer over NJ or not. But this is certainly a more economical way to go and works just as well or better than the spray can.
For finishes, I use shellac as my film finish. That's pretty green. I can use alcohol or ammonia to clean the brushes.
Excess hide glue gets poured onto the shavings in my trash can. Those shavings go under the swing set and make a nice mushy area. I hear they attract termites, so it's good to keep the shavings away from the house.
Adam
(post #116470, reply #4 of 65)
Hey, Bob --
Like you, I've put in CFLs. I'm going to be running some extra fixtures, because I need a bit more light than the CFLs put out.
Other than that, it's about as "green" as it's going to get -- the door is windproofed except for the sill, which, due to a drain problem has to be removable. About the only other thing I can do is to put in a second pane on the backs of the windows for a bit more insulation.
Mine is a basement shop, so mostly below grade, the ceiling is stuffed with rockwool, so it's as insulated as can be.
[edit] Forgot about dust & shavings -- they hit the garden, unless they're walnut, in which case they hit the f**g English ivy on the back fence.
Leon
Edited 11/15/2008 6:29 pm ET by lwj2
Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
(post #116470, reply #19 of 65)
We recycle all my dust/shavings into the compost pile and/or around the yard for mulch. Don't have to worry about Walnut as I don't have any - DANG!
If I did have some I'd use it to control our Queen Annes lace. That stuff goes all over the yard.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #5 of 65)
Bob,
I think of my shop as fairly green. Here's my reasons.
1) All sawdust is re-used by a local farmer.
2) I have a basement shop that doesn't require a heating source other than the heat loss from the furnace and heating pipes overhead.
3) I recycle all paper products(not used sandpaper) and metal waist.
4) I almost always use natural oils and low VOC spray finishes. And use ####HVLP spray system.
5) All non-plywood wood scraps are used to help heat a home in my area.
6) I use 4' flourescent bulbs in the shop on 3 light switches. That way I can shut off lighting in areas where it isn't needed.
7) The basement shop is studded and insulated.
8) My commute to the shop is a 10 second walk from the refrigerator. (my 2nd favorite location in the house)
(post #116470, reply #20 of 65)
Sounds like you're into it. I have or will be taking many of the steps you've adopted. Great ideas.
Thanks,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #6 of 65)
More than anything - conscious intent. to try harder.
Other green things. use sawdust for mulch. Heavy insulation. Recycle most paper/glass goods, repackage with Rockler's peanuts, use as much local woods as possible (starting to use more Alder which to local timber people is a "trash" wood - save rain forrest/carbon footprint etc. of rare woods, especially in secondary use. Zone lighting. Added skylights. Reduce power although cost of power is also reason. Have started to use solar chargers on trickle users. More hide, less chemical glue - on purpose-doesn't help fish/horses or rabbits but it seems to be a better idea. Does use more electricity though. More water base stuff instead of oil. Hard to get around the use of BLO though.
BB
Does buying Green Hitachi and Green Festools count?
(post #116470, reply #13 of 65)
"Does buying green Hitachi and green Festool count?"
Not much, but green Grizzlies counts a bunch.
(post #116470, reply #14 of 65)
Well, I just finished the insulation on my shop yesterday and the day before by putting 1 inch foam board on the foundation. The walls and ceiling are insulated with sprayed on foam. About all the shop is done now except trimming the windows, doors and around the foundation. After almost five years of building, I mostly forgotten what to do with it. It is heated with an outside boiler with water in the floor. I am in the third year of heating the shop by using the trimmings from the trees removed for building the shop.
Four patio doors for windows but I think they are a waste both for light and heat since I have to have lights on anyway. The primary lights consist of eight fixtures of four 4' T5's (54 watts) each tube. They do take over 1700 watts. There is an additional three 100 watt fixtures for secondary lights if I have them on. Not particularly saving on elect but it surely gives a lot of light for an old geezer.
Incidentally, I put in geothermal in the house where I had been heating with wood. Surprisingly I used more than $100 less on elect than the year before the geo installation
By the way, if those T 12 lights give more light than necessary, you can wire them so you can switch the inside tubes separately from the outside tubes on a four tube fixture, thus saving on the electric bill.
Edited 11/16/2008 10:59 pm ET by Tinkerer3
(post #116470, reply #21 of 65)
BB,
I hear that the government is rethinking their position on the energy tax credit program that was in place back in the 80s. They'll no doubt figure a way to make it more expensive - pessimisim is getting the best of me.
One issue I see in this Green movement of late is there seems to be an underlying mentality that you need to spend more money to get there. Green thangs seem to cost a lot more than their conventional counterparts.
To me I think greening up can and does involve some amount of common sense. Akin to the old Fram oil filter ad - You can pay me now or pay me later.
To me a HUGE part of this is in recycling.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
(post #116470, reply #7 of 65)
When I built I installed radiant floor heating, super insulated walls and attic, general lighting is three banks of energy saver flouresents each on a switch, flourescent task lighting over radial arm saw and miter saw, and I followed the guidelines for square footage of windows, two on the east and two on the south to maximize passive solar gain. It all works, with the new service, 400 amp to the central meter, 200 to the shop, and 100 to the house for now, my monthly hydro bill actually went down after the shop was built and being used. The shop is heated with oil fired water heater, and used one tank of oil last winter, the temp in the shop averages 65 F. Max in the summer went to 72 F. Wood scraps from the shop are used in the house.
(post #116470, reply #22 of 65)
Your post hit on something that has nagged at me for a while now - hydro electricity. Why we haven't placed more emphasis on that is beyond me. It can be done so as to be environmentally friendly and I think is a lot less intrusive than wind towers. Solar is another.
Our summer cottage is in Quebec and our electricity up there is about ½ what is is in the states. OH, and the local power company buys power from Hydro Quebec too...................
Course the government wants the biggest bang for the buck and forgets that if everyone could save 20 bucks a month we'd have that much more money to spend. Multiply that by all the folks in the states and we're talking about some serious dinaros (sp?) man.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!