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Cyclone vs Trash Can Cyclone Lid

Astrain's picture

Hi, Im thinking in buying a 3HP dust collector( 1 stage with 4 bags) and put  infront of it a Trash Can Cyclone Lid to make the system 2 stage.


My question is, how would that compare to buying a 3HP Cyclone?


its going to be a lot of diference between both?


Thanks!


 


 

Rich14's picture

(post #99906, reply #1 of 17)

Astrain,


A properly designed cyclone system will be far superior to any other D/C setup. Trash can cyclone lids are very poor compared to a "real cyclone." They separate large pieces out of the air stream, but allow most of the dust through to the dust bags. They also start discharging their contents when 1/3 to 1/2 full. A good cyclone will trap everything, resulting in very little, if any dust, including the worst part, fine dust, ever getting to the filtration bags or filters.


Check out the products and the videos on this site:


http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/


Edited 10/12/2006 6:14 pm ET by Rich14

Buster2000's picture

(post #99906, reply #2 of 17)

The cyclone lids seem to work well at separating larger material, but I really doubt tehir effectivness with finer particles.  As well I think that you'll have trouble with that strong of a DC, I remember reading somplace that a 3HP will just pull everything from the can.  If you have the space go for a cyclone, Onieda Air sells them put together.  I've spoken to the guys at Clearvue as well and they are very proffesional.

JMartinsky's picture

(post #99906, reply #3 of 17)

Dear A,
I can not comment on the "trash can type" setup, but I have had an Oneida 3 hp cyclone for about five years, and it is great. I run it with no filters, exhausting out the back of my shop and I have to tell you that it still amazes me how efficient that it is. It seems to catch everything. In the dust canister, I end up with all matter large & small. Right down to dust the consistency of Talcum. I have checked the exhaust area after a snowfall and there is no discoloration of the snow. The only time that I ever seem to get any type of discharge is when I let it overfill. Oneida is great, I can't speak to clearveiw, but their website would seem to indicate a quality product. One cool thing about the clearveiw would be the ability to seem how it works internally.

Best,

John

bobhe's picture

(post #99906, reply #4 of 17)

I just finished installing the Clearvue and am very impressed with the performance.  I installed it outside the shop in my  carport so the noise level in my shop is low and any dust that might go the the outlet goes outside.  No filters installed.  Ed Morgano is also very good at dust collection information and his service is exceptional.


 


Bob Heveri

Astrain's picture

(post #99906, reply #5 of 17)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions,

I was considering a Trash Can Cyclone Lid cause in here they only sell 1 stage dust collectors and shiping from the US its expensive, but it seem that it isnt a good idea.

Oneida and Clearvue in fact are the ones that I am considering, Oneida just sent me a catalog wich has been really helpfull, now Im deciding wich one to buy or if build one myself.

Thanks again.!!

JimV's picture

(post #99906, reply #6 of 17)

If you know a decent sheetmetal shop, you can go to Bill Pentz' site and build your own. Might be cheaper than purchasing/shipping.

Jim

"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
cadiddlehopper's picture

(post #99906, reply #7 of 17)

I have a 3-HP collector + trash can cyclone. Actually one must have 2 or 3 trash can cyclones for a collector of that size. They require 4-inch hoses but the large collector needs 8-inch hose or larger. Fine dust goes right thru also. I now use the cyclone on my jointer & planer branch only since their shavings are the only ones that collect in the can. The can really needs to be twice as deep also. It will only fill about half way at which point it quits working. Go for the real thing.

Cadiddlehopper

BobMc's picture

(post #99906, reply #8 of 17)

Me too--I agree with all the above posts--three (3) HP will empty a trash can with a lid cyclone.  I run 1.5 HP collector through a trash can, and as others note, they are not effective once the canis about a third full. 


As I recall from other threads, you're starting a commercial shop, aren't you?  Get the real deal, it will be less fussing, and less labor.


BTW, what was the outcome on the Black Widow spiders?


 


 


Edited 10/15/2006 2:02 pm ET by BobMc

mudman's picture

(post #99906, reply #9 of 17)

Using a trash can seperator will not benifit you. It will cause a signifigant CFM loss and for what? Do you really care if your chips go in a can or in the bags? If you have a 4 bag system you will not easily fill them up, one of those bags will hold as much as a trash can. If you have some good reason to seperate the chips then it makes sense, but all you will do is force yourself to empty that can four times more often than you would have to empty the bags.


Cyclones in general are questionable in my opinion. The only benifit is that if you are using fine filters you will not have to shake off the cake as often, assuming the cyclone is working properly. Theoreticly the cyclone is not trying to seperate the chips and dust, it is trying to get all the dust to fall out before it gets to the filters so they stay clean. But there are a lot of conditions that will cause even the best units to run poorly. The large units like the 3 HP 4 bag unit you are looking at have much more filter area and can run in a comercial shop with sanding and planing hapening at the same time and not need to be shaken out for 4 hours. And I mean a real comercial shop. In my shop I never need to shake out the bags unless I am doing some serious sanding. Cyclones cost much more and have much lower CFM and SP numbers. Cylone fans will claim that the cyclone will run consistantly at its rated numbers and a bag style collector's performance will reduce as the bags fill. However, I know from experience that when compairing units of equal HP or prices the bags will out perform considerably.


If you have a little 650 CFM collector or a shop vac the trash can seperator will keep you from dumping them as often. For a large high CFM and high capacity unit like you are talking about there is no advantage.


Pardon my spelling,


Mike


Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

Pardon my spelling,

Mike

Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

Rich14's picture

(post #99906, reply #10 of 17)

Mike,


I completely disagree. You have the entire situation backward. A cyclone system is far better than the typical bag system. The bag systems have become very popular because they seem to cost less. But, even in the very short run, it becomes obvious that cyclone systems are far superior.


Bag systems have been labeled "dust blowers" rather than dust collectors by those who have seen the difference. And the label dust blower is correct.


The 5 hp Clear Vue unit at $1000 is the best bargain in the business. It will really deliver 800-1100 CFM through 6" collecting ducts. Any of the Oneida designs will do exactly what Oneida says they will.


The bag systems are seriously over-rated in their capabilities and loose air-carrying capacity as soon as they start pulling dust.


Rich


Edited 10/14/2006 4:50 pm ET by Rich14

mudman's picture

(post #99906, reply #11 of 17)

Rich you are talking to the owner of an Oneda 3 horse cyclone that replaced a PM 3 horse 4 bag unit. Nothing else in the system changed. I bought the unit because I got it for a good deal. The bags on the PM unit are rated to the same micron size as the Oneda. I didn't have a problem with the bag system other than the floor space it took up.


You are making broad statements with no information to support them. Bag systems are known to pump lots of the finest dust into the air because the OEM bags are not meant to catch the finest dust. If you put better (and preferably larger) bags on a system it can filter almost as good as any of the best cyclones. The slight difference in dust capturing is negligable because there is always dust floating around. Even the best systems aren't going to capture all the dust from a shaper, router, or sander. And while this is not an imperical measurement I can tell you that the dust accumulation around the shop has not changed.


I am not saying that one is better than the other. Cyclones can capture the finer dust better and a good system will allow you to run it longer between filter cleaning. They also have a smaller footprint, but this is only because they have fewer collection bins. A comparable bag system will have much greater flow, even with the bags not being pristine. I just want to show the difference between the two machines. It is assumed by many that cyclones are automaticly better, but it is not that simple.


I sincerely would like to hear why you believe Cyclones are "far superior".


Pardon my spelling,


Mike


Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

Pardon my spelling,

Mike

Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

Rich14's picture

(post #99906, reply #12 of 17)

Mike,

"Nothing else in the system changed. I bought the unit because I got it for a good deal. The bags on the PM unit are rated to the same micron size as the Oneda. I didn't have a problem with the bag system other than the floor space it took up."

I don't know what else your system entails and why the Oneida cyclone mated to whatever piping you have is not giving you the performance it should. Oneida can probably help you figure out what's wrong.

Your's is hardly a typical experience.

A good cyclone set up separates almost all the particulates from the airstream and dumps them into the collection cannister. The sub-micron filters on the outlet side are almost unneeded and often go for months without significant dust accumulation. It it a fundamental assumption that a cyclone system is going to prevent fine dust from getting back into the shop after it enters the cyclone intake. The cyclone does NOT rely on the filters to do this.

A bag system DOES rely on the filters to remove dust from the air stream. And manufacturers supply bags with 30 micron pores without batting an eye. Yes you need to fit those systems with proper filters. Unfortunately, that method is inherently inferior. The abrasive, high-speed dust breaks down the filter material, the cake needs to be removed, and the bags leak, eventually, always.

"Even the best systems aren't going to capture all the dust from a shaper, router, or sander."

No they're not and if the system is not properly designed to first capture the dust clould, then the dust will be in the shop no matter what kind of system is in operation. But if the system intake captures the dust, that dust will be in the collection bin, not the air if the system is a cyclone.

Have you discussed your dissatisfaction with Oneida?


Edited 10/14/2006 7:51 pm ET by Rich14

mudman's picture

(post #99906, reply #13 of 17)

My duct work is definately sub standard. But, nothing changed so both systems were dissadvantaged. I am not dissatisfied with the unit. It works exactly as it should. It has plenty of power and I only have to clean the filter after serious sanding or procesing a half a kitchen of sheet goods. I am sure that the Onieda lets out less dust from the filters, but it cant be much because I had 5 micron bags on the PM system and way more sqft of bag. The dust that collects in my shop isn't coming from the dust collector (nor was it with the bag system) it comes from what is not collected at the machines.


I like the unit because it fits in my shop nicely and I could mount it 5 feet off the floor opening the area underneath for use. It is a little quiter but when the other machines are running that dosent matter. I can tell the flow is less when I am running the planer (which is at the end of the run) and the table saw (which is on a different branch creating the worst case senario). It hasn't clogged yet but I can tell that is could. Chips collect at a Y, I can tell because when I open another gate the collected chips suddenly hit the cyclone. Also when I am "sweeping" the floor with the DC I can tell there is less suction now. I really don't care, the system is still plenty for my shop, but I would not have spent the retail difference of the two machines.


If you want a cyclone beacause it captures more dust compaired to a cheep off the shelf bag system, or because you wont have to shake the bag out as often then you are buying the right machine. If you are buying it because it creates a cleaner, safer work enviroment or because it has more power then your reasoning is faulty. A good bag system will keep as clean of a work place and will collect more of the dust at the machines because it has more air flow.


So I am happy with the cyclone but would not have spent more money to get it, and the lessend flow dosent matter in my shop.


Pardon my spelling,


Mike


Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

Pardon my spelling,

Mike

Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

Astrain's picture

(post #99906, reply #14 of 17)

Thanks everyone. Sorry for the late late reply, Ive been really busy installing and doing things in the shop.:-)

Yesterday I bought some 4" PVC pipe to connect a 1-1/2HP dust collector (that I already have) to several machines (of course using blast gates)and did a quick test conecting what would be the longest run and I have to say Im impressed, I never tought that at the end of the pipe it would be that much suction.

Is anyone else using a 1-1/2HP DC as a central Dust collector? Im going to try it for a while to see if I really need a 3 HP

BobMc, Yep thats me, I found a product in the garden department made by ORTHO that its labeled to kill black widow spider. Its seems to be very good, its the kind that they use in restaurants so it doesnt have the strong smell of regular insecticedes and so far I havent seen a single widow spider since I sprayed my shop with it.

BarryO's picture

(post #99906, reply #15 of 17)

Cyclones have certainly become all the rage, even in home vaccum cleaners (Dyson). The trade-off with the cyclones, though, is the large static pressure loss they introduce ahead of the impeller.


Cyclone proponents make the argument that:


-- since the impeller doesn't need to be designed to take the punishment of being hit by chips, it can be more efficient;


-- The filter bags on the 1-stage units either let alot of fine dust through, or end up getting so clogged with dust that they introduce an even higher static pressure loss themselves.


As for me, I just have a hobby shop, and live in a rural area, so I just blow everything out back:  no static pressure loss from either cyclone, or filter bags.

AntzyClancy's picture

(post #99906, reply #16 of 17)

Here we go again.  For those who are unaware, the most complete and technically sound investigation of dust collection for hobby shops was done by Bill Pentz.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm

This site answers 99% of the questions I have routinely seen posted here, and his answers are based on scientific study, not BS.

Here is a nutshell:

Work outside if you can.  If you can't,  get at least 800 cfm at the machines and blow the air outside.

If you have to return the air to the shop, only an efficiently designed cyclone DC system will provide the minimum collection of fine dust to protect your lungs.  This is not a "my shop looks cleaner" issue.

None of the mainstream cyclone manufactures have adequately efficient machines.  The new designs by JDS, Oneida, and Gizzly, attempt to partially implement Pentz's designs ideas, but they haven't been fully tested, so buyer-be-ware.

Pentz's design is adequately efficient, and you can build it yourself with the plans on his site (free), or you can buy the ClearVue cyclone which is based on his design and endorsed by Pentz.  It is also quite economical.

That's the gist, but I encourage you to read the site in its entirety so that you understand the facts behind the conclusions.

Note:  Mudman is drawing what seems to be reasonable conclusions based on his personal experience and frame of reference.  In a general sense though, most of his conclusions are just plain wrong.  I could go through them one-by-one, but Pentz has already done the work and it is there for everyone to read.

Good luck,

Todd


 

BarryO's picture

(post #99906, reply #17 of 17)

Todd,


FWIW not everyone accepts everything Bill's site says.  On other fora, there seem to be frequent clashes that lead to threads being locked, and members temporarily banned.


Lately, the CEO of one DC company is engaged in some public battles; it hasn't been pretty.  I'll just leave it to say that people should do their own research, from as many different sources as they can (including Bill's site), and draw their own conclusions.  That's far better than taking anyone's word here, or anywhere else, as gospel.  The approach of the Skepical Enquirer has always been the best way to get to objective truth.