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Three way mitre

MichaelLomax's picture

Three way mitre (post #105851)

in


I recently completed a jewelry box that utilized a 3-way mitre joint to bring together three pieces at "right" angles. This provided a very clean look, and given the way the joint was made, there was plenty of glue area for a strong joint. I am certain the joint would be sufficiently strong for a table or a bench. See attached files.


While researching the joint, I found very little information on it. I found a few diagrams here and there but very little else. I thought this would make a great article for FW magazine. Every woodworker that has seen the joint has been fascinated by it and was interested in getting more information.


However, when I submitted a proposal to Fine Woodworking magazine, I was told that they were "afraid the topic is just not right for Fine Woodworking."


While I can't say what is right for Fine Woodworking, I really felt that FW readers would be interested. I thought, here is something new that I haven't seen before. Considering that the last FW contained yet another article on cutting dovetails, this certainly would be a change.


Personally, I am interested in learning more about this particular joint (anyone got info?) but, in the end, I guess this posting is simply a survey of interest. If interested, a short post saying so would be great. If you have more info, that too would be great.


lomax

Timberwerks's picture

(post #105851, reply #1 of 24)

Ian Kirby used this method a few years ago in American Woodworker for a display table he shows all the steps in a three page project. If your interested I can copy them for you and mail them out let me know. dale9091@aol.com.

DJOFurnituremaker 木材場 

Timberwerks's picture

(post #105851, reply #2 of 24)

I just noticed in Tauntons joinery book they also have a couple pages on this.Kirbys method is much simpler IMHO I used this on a night stand and it is a very strong joint.


Dale

DJOFurnituremaker 木材場 

MichaelLomax's picture

(post #105851, reply #3 of 24)

Love to see that info!


lomax

Timberwerks's picture

(post #105851, reply #4 of 24)

E mail me your address and E mail address. If my wife has time to scan it I will have her send it over the net, My tallent is woodworking not computers. If not I will drop copies in the mail tomorrow.


Dale


dale9091@aol.com

DJOFurnituremaker 木材場 

CharlesF7's picture

(post #105851, reply #5 of 24)

Aside from Tauntons Joinery book, I've seen some details of this joint in the Chinese Domestic Furniture book by Gustav Ecke.  A furniture maker name Yeung Chan will soon have a book published called Classic Joints with Power Tools. I believe this joint and other similar ones are included.

SgianDubh's picture

(post #105851, reply #6 of 24)

It's a very old and well known joint called, on the right hand side of the pond, a showcase joint, which is nowadays largely supplanted by proprietary showcase corner fitting construction. Your version is a variation on the version that includes dovetailed horizontal parts. Different versions are thoroughly described in those classic tomes The Technique (US Dictionary)  of Furnituremaking by Ernest Joyce and Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis. Alf Martensson in The Woodworker's Bible describes another version of the the three way joint that is unmitred. If you don't own many reference books, as I don't, you at least need to make sure the ones you do own cover the field, ha, ha. I've only needed to make it once in twenty five years as a cabinetmaker, but it is a neat joint. I've had to make the double twisted dovetail more often, where a corner, intersecting at right angles, is dovetailed in both directions at the same time. Slainte, RJ.


Edited 7/24/2002 3:03:46 AM ET by Sgian Dubh

Danford_C_'s picture

(post #105851, reply #7 of 24)

Michael,


I recall a discussion here a couple of years ago in regard to the showcase joint, most informative.  As Sgian says; Ernest Joyce discusses this joint (and many others) in his book.


I do find it "amusing"  that Fine WoodWorking was not interested, back in their "black and white" days, they often had articles on lesser known joinery techniques, perhaps they should change their name to Basic WoodWorking?  FWIW.


Dano


"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright


Edited 7/24/2002 9:57:35 AM ET by Danford C. Jennings

"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
BenM's picture

(post #105851, reply #8 of 24)

I am positive that FWW published at least one article on making this joint, maybe two articles.  I will have to dig into the archives tonight to find it.


By the way, very nice jewelry box.

Danford_C_'s picture

(post #105851, reply #9 of 24)

Ben,


Wow, one or two articles in 26 years; impressive. ;-)  Wonder how many articles they've done on mortise and tenon joints, dovetails, and "how to" apply a finish in that time frame?.........


Dano


"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
TimSams's picture

(post #105851, reply #10 of 24)

For whatever it's worth, there are a lot of reasons why proposals are rejected beyond just the idea. Without addressing publicly Mr. Lomax's particular proposal, I can tell you that we did have a proposal of this exact joint in house already (before his came through). We've hesitated to use it because it's not a joint we see our reader's using very often. As Sgian noted, he's used this particular joint once in his whole career.


On the other hand, it's our job to push our readers. It's one of those things that makes this job interesting. I know I'd be interested in hearing what other joints you'd like to see.


Tim


____________
Tim Sams
Associate Editor, Fine Woodworking
Knots Moderator


Edited 7/24/2002 4:27:32 PM ET by Tim Sams

MichaelLomax's picture

(post #105851, reply #11 of 24)


As you might have noted by the tone of my original post, I still feel that this would be a great topic for FW to cover.  I will admit that I was a bit disappointed when FW turned down my proposal.  I would have been less so if I had been given an realistic reason, i.e. someone else has already suggested the same.


I have subscribed to FW for about two years now and even in that short period of time, each issue is beginning to look much like the last with very few "new" ideas.  While I understand that there are limited topics when it comes to a specific subject such as woodworking, why limit your magazine to so few.  As Danford Jennings noted in his post, some topics seem to get recycled frequently.


When deciding that your readership does not use this joint often did you consider this might have something to do with the fact that so little has been written about it.  New designs will not employ a method that the designer is not aware of.


Go on, publish an article on this subject. (Even if I am not the author) As I have said before every woodworker I have spoken to regarding this matter has expressed a great deal of interest.  Had I shown them some practice dovetails, I bet there would have been significantly less enthusiasm.


Michael Lomax

Timberwerks's picture

(post #105851, reply #12 of 24)

I think Michael has a valid point. As I mentioned in a previous post Ian Kirby did his version of this joint about three years ago in American Woodworker. Untill that point I had never purchased that magizine. It was the fact that they offerd something new to me that  influened me to purhace my first issue. I have since then saved this article and passed it along to several other woodworkers who have used this joint in thier projects. I would enjoy revistiting this joint as done by a contributor of FineWoodworking and I am sure others will too. Even if a woodworker only uses this joint  once in his career he will enjoy passing it on to others as I know I have. 

DJOFurnituremaker 木材場 

Jimma's picture

(post #105851, reply #13 of 24)

It was I who raised this topic a couple of years ago and to which Dano refers. The "showcase" or 3-way miter joint was very practically treated (with detailed drawings) in FWW #56, Jan/Feb 1986, pp 48 and 49,"Console Table" by John Kriegshauser -- it's the issue with wooden clock parts on the cover. This article was a real treat to find, thanks to a Knots poster, because it released me from the tedium and skill required to make such a joint totally by hand in the Chinese manner. I had originally sought such a joint to permit an original design for a chaise-side table in whicn the corners would be particularly prominent and which would allow sculptured legs to flow into the rails with grace and continuity. I found this joint to be fascinating enough that I made a poplar mockup of the table using the joint and made a presentation of it to the local furniture guild, comparing it with the Chinese version. I do agree with timber that it would make an interesting article for readers of FWW, but it sure ain't for the timid woodworker who may be the current demographic target.

SgianDubh's picture

(post #105851, reply #14 of 24)

Michael, I wouldn't worry too much about a rejection from Taunton. They routinely reject my submissions, but that's no big deal. They must get a gazillion submissions as they are the most widely read wood-whacker's magazine in North America, and they do surely have their editorial priorities to consider. They surely cater to their readership, as they must.  I just send the rejected suggestion as a complete manuscript to publisher's that do seem to like my drivel. For instance, Taunton rejected my suggestion for an article on designing and making a bed. Actually, they didn't; they didn't respond at all, but I think that might have been because I sent the idea to an employee that was just leaving. They rejected an article on strategies for built-in furniture-- they had that issue covered. They rejected an article on grain filling techniques for open grained timber using plaster of paris and water based powder paints-- apparently one of their preferred finishing authors is (has?) already recently written a similar article for them. It doesn't matter. Send your completed manuscript on the technique to other publishers and see if one will bite. Slainte, RJ.

Jimma's picture

(post #105851, reply #15 of 24)


As a veteran freelance writer, I completely agree with Sgian's take on rejection by a periodical. It's almost axiomatic that persistence -- by that I mean sending an article to every magazine you can think of -- will hit sometime. Maybe it will be years later, but it will strike an editor's interest sooner or later (provided the article has some merit). I even know writers who collect rejection notices and display them! Woodworking is a bit different in that a decent article requires technical depth as well as communication essentials, but the reasons for rejection, as Sgian implies, can be completely unknown and variable (one of the most common reasons being a topic already under consideration or under consideration by a competing magazine). Those who make a living writing are usually very aware of what's happening in their fields of interest. Practically speaking, this would mean in the woodworking world keeping up with about ten or twelve periodicals. So, keep polishing and submitting if you believe in the story!

MichaelLomax's picture

(post #105851, reply #16 of 24)

I guess the "form letter" was what really set me off.  After reading the sixth article about dovetails in two years, I was a bit ticked that FW decided that the "topic is just not right for Fine Woodworking."   Had it been worded differently, I might not have been so put off.


I guess the first post was not written to get under the skin of the FW editors.  It was an attempt to see if I was off in never-neverland regarding my interested in woodworking.  I for one am interested in learning more about some of the more esoteric aspects of woodworking and would love to see a greater variety of  articles in FW or another magazine. 


Thanks to all that provided additional sources regarding this matter.  And thanks for the positive comments regarding both my work and the submission of magazine articles.  I am not a writer and doubt that I will put too much effort into further submissions but I do want to encourage others to submit their work when it is different from the norm.  I for one want to learn about it.


lomax

TimSams's picture

(post #105851, reply #20 of 24)

As an editor, I would also encourage you all to keep sending those proposals in.


The form letter can be jarring but it's only there because of the amount of proposals we receive. Professional writers know about this but the average person can't be expected to know that.


Tim


____________
Tim Sams
Associate Editor, Fine Woodworking
Knots Moderator

MarkRoderick's picture

(post #105851, reply #22 of 24)

 

I’ll add the vote of a non-professional. I enjoy reading about techniques I cannot accomplish myself today but can nevertheless admire and aspire to. These articles are what puts the “Fine” in “Fine Woodworking” as far as I’m concerned.


I don’t like to see fine publications, whether magazines or newspapers, go down-market. The most obvious case-in-point: American Woodworker. As originally conceived that magazine might have become a worthy competitor of FWW, but since being purchased by Reader’s Digest it has moved (no doubt intentionally) farther and farther down the woodworking spectrum. I recall once seeing plans for a gorgeous walnut entertainment center in American Woodworker, as well as pieces featuring Franz Klaus and other luminaries. The luminaries now mostly seem to have vanished and the project plans now involve plant holders and similar items.


Sure, in the woodworking market  there are 10,000 times more non-professionals like me than professionals like Sgian and the handful of others who grace this board. So there is an obvious marketing logic to articles about dovetailed drawers. My point is that we non-professionals really enjoy reading about the higher-end stuff as well, and in fact subscribe to FWW largely for that purpose.


By the way, that is a beautifully executed piece.

TomMGTC's picture

(post #105851, reply #23 of 24)

I am also disappointed in the continual dumbing down of the magazines on the market. After receiving the latest American woodworker I wished I had not renewed my subscription. I like to read more articles about difficult or more advanced joinery and furniture. They give me more inspiration and make me set the bar higher for my own personal goals.


I was a woodsmith subscriber for many years as well. They had some great projects in their earlier years but they seemed to drop the level of difficulty a great deal in the mid to late 90's.


Hopefully FWW and Woodwork will continue to keep the bar high.

Tom

Douglasville, GA

Timberwerks's picture

(post #105851, reply #24 of 24)

I fully agree, I get a knot in my stomach when I page through some of the other magizines and find lawn ornament projects. Even though I have 15 years experince in furnituremaking I still enjoy learning new tips and skills.  This is why I enjoy reading Finewoodworking and WoodWork magizines. But along with me I know there are others who want to add more complexity to their projects for their personal satisfaction and growth as a craftsman. I am sure readers with less experince will revisit past issues and attempt more complicated projects as their skill grows. Let's face it I know we all save are issues for reasons such as this. So it seems to make sense to me that a feature project using the three way mitre will not be a waste of print. I would much rather see this than a 10" blade review, that I can get from other magizines.


Dale

DJOFurnituremaker 木材場 

nhlett's picture

(post #105851, reply #21 of 24)

“Consider this my request. Hopefully the ball will keep rolling”


As reader of your fine publication for more years than I can recall ( I think at least 10), the main reason I subscribe is that you almost always print new, interesting approaches to woodworking. I look forward to every issue. My particular interest leans to the hand made rather than machine ( a blade spinning at thousands of RPMs scares me and one of my favorite sayings is that no one ever cut off a finger with a handsaw, although I found out recently that is not true. A fellow told me that his grandfather cut off his thumb with a handsaw. He didn't know the details and, ironicly, he had recently cut off the tip of his finger on a tablesaw), but "new" woodworking joints are always of interest to me.


Peter

nbrons's picture

(post #105851, reply #17 of 24)

I would also like to see some other joinery techniques other than the dovetail over and over again.  I can't figure why this joint wouldnt be good material to cover in the magazine.  Im sure if a number of requests are made, we can see an article in a future magazine. 

Timberwerks's picture

(post #105851, reply #18 of 24)

Consider this my request. Hopefully the ball will keep rolling.


Dale/ Timberland Craftsman


FurnitureMaker


Grafton WI, Fine Woodworking reader 6 years.

DJOFurnituremaker 木材場 

floman47's picture

(post #105851, reply #19 of 24)

“Consider this my request. Hopefully the ball will keep rolling”


Jeff in so cal


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Fine Woodworking reader cense No. 24 1980