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Comment on joint design, method, materials, for Krenov music table

Comment on joint design, method, materials, for Krenov music table (post #169286)

Gene_Davis on Mon, 10/31/2011 - 14:13

Joinery

This same topic was posted by me at two other woodworker sites, so please excuse the repeat, if you saw it elsewhere. I am trying to get all input possible.

James Krenov built at least two of these, each four-legged tables with drawers, the top of which contains a fold-up A-frame easel-type subassembly that holds sheet music, so that two players, facing each other across the table, can see their music.

Krenov's books were my early inspiration, and one of the music stands can be seen in his 1979 book, The Impractical Cabinetmaker. From the photos, I did a 3D Sketchup model of the project, and am preparing my plan of attack for building it.

If you are a SU user, you can access and download my 3D model from the 3D Warehouse. See the image here for what it is called, although you get right to it just by using "Krenov music" as a search term in the Warehouse. If interested in participating in this "how can we do the details" discussion, you might want to download it, turn off shadows, delete the guitar and the floor, and get modeling.

The model in the Warehouse has no joinery detailed, but I have started to map things out, as can be seen in the X-ray view attached here.

James made the sides of the case, the wide stretchers, from a glued-up core of something and resawn "veneer" faces. I was thinking of doing something similar, but instead using 3/8 baltic birch as the core, with 1/4" species, perhaps cherry, as the faces. The core will continue out the ends as tenons, going into mortises in the legs.

How might that work out? As opposed to solid cherry, for instance. I'm searching for ideas here.

"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

Gene Davis 1920-1985

Gene, You are risking (post #169286, reply #1 of 5)

by joinerswork in reply to Gene_Davis [original] on Mon, 10/31/2011 - 15:02

Gene,

You are risking delamination or splitting/checking of face "veneers" 1/4" thick. Safer to double up the 3/8" core, and add 1/16" veneers to that, or just use solid wood, and allow for some movement.

Ray

I have a feeling that James K (post #169286, reply #2 of 5)

by Gene_Davis in reply to joinerswork [original] on Mon, 10/31/2011 - 16:10

I have a feeling that James K did not go to 1/16". How do you think 1/8" might go?

"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

Gene Davis 1920-1985

I agree with the previous (post #169286, reply #3 of 5)

by mrossk in reply to Gene_Davis [original] on Mon, 10/31/2011 - 19:17

I agree with the previous poster. Wood at 1/8" will act like solid wood and you ought to consider wood movement as you would for solid stock. IMO 3/32 is the thickest you should consider, but 1/16 is probably safer. You could veneer that thicker stock to solid wood, if grain direction matches. Of course, you could try it and see how it goes in a year or so and report back with an "I told you so".

Good luck,

Michael

OK, so here is a new idea. (post #169286, reply #5 of 5)

by Gene_Davis in reply to mrossk [original] on Wed, 11/02/2011 - 07:23

OK, so here is a new idea. The side stretchers of this design, at about 8" in height, are simply too wide to be done in solid lumber. No matter the species, even well-dried and tight-grained quarter-sawn lumber will move with the seasons.

Krenov used his "plywood" method to make the part, and since I don't have my book anymore, I cannot say what thickness he did the exterior skins. I believe he used european pearwood.

The attached sketch shows a three-piece arrangement for the side stretcher, with solid wood top and bottom edges, and a plywood center. The hardwood veneer ply comes in at 23/32 if I use 7-ply cherry-faced cabinet ply.

Today's thought is to biscuit the ply to the solid edges, have the edges with a slight rebate to hide the ply edge as shown, and tenon the ends of the play center just to engage it to the legs and help make the whole stretcher subassembly add a little panel stiffening to the leg-stretcher-leg side assemblies.

I might be better off using baltic birch ply for these center parts and veneering cherry to it, to get better tenons.

How does this sound now?

"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

Gene Davis 1920-1985