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Add floating tennon to cope and stick?

Add floating tennon to cope and stick? (post #106325)

Mike&L on Sat, 08/26/2006 - 00:40

Joinery

I am making my first stick and cope doors for a bathroom cabinet and could use some advise. Since I will be setting a mirror into the door in place of a panel, my thinking is that the extra weight of a 10 by 22 inch mirror will tend to rack the short tennon in the cope and stick format.

For that reason I am planning to add floating tennon to the joints, which, at an inch long (the maximum length of my 1/4 inch spiral bit) will give me tennon half an inch longer than the stub tennon from the coping bit (sticking bit? I can't seem to keep that "bit" straight).

One of my friends has suggested that the effort to do this isn't worth the effort. Has anyone else experimented with adding floating tennon to this type of door rather than simply building the frame the old fashioned way with full tennon?

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by Tom7 in reply to Mike&L [original] on Sat, 08/26/2006 - 00:56

It is worth the effort and is definitely very easy to do. I cut the mortises with a 1/4" solid carbide spiral up cut bit to 1" depth before I route the cope and stick. I use the Microfence edge guide with an extra guide on the opposite side so the pieces are captured and bit wander is impossible. I use the Tage Frid simple mortise box to hold the pieces being careful that the face side is always to the edge guide side. I use 1/4" MDF for the tenons as it is a perfect 1/4" and plenty strong for these tenons. It increases the frame strength for heavy applications. For good measure, I add an 18 gauge, 5/8" brad using my Senco nailer to each mortise through the back side of the rails and stiles where the loose tenon resides.

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by Mike&L in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 08/26/2006 - 01:05

Thanks for the response. I was hopeing that this would work.

Where might I find a picture/drawing of the Tage Frid simple miter box?

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by Tom7 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 08/26/2006 - 01:17

Here are several url's that explain it. It is marvelously simple and works great.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2066

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=29

And here is the refeerence to the double sided edge guide. I always got some bit wander with multuple plunges using a single edge guide. The double edge guide totally eliminated bit wander so I get perfectly aligned mortises every time, especially important with cope and stick joints. I got the idea from Pat Warner's site but used my Microfence on one side, bought longer guide rods from Microfence and made my own second edge guide using Pat Warner's idea. I use the double edge guide with the Tage Frid mortising jig above because the whole setup is so stable. It works so great!

http://patwarner.com/double_edge_guide.html

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by Mike&L in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 08/26/2006 - 01:32

Well, I'm happy now. I've printed both the references out for more leisurely reading.

Thanks for the url's as well. I haven't previously seen either of these two sites. I expect that I'll prowl them for a few evenings to see what else I can learn.

Thanks again.

Mike

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by tms in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 08/26/2006 - 04:24

Hey Mike,

I've no new references for you but, I'm in the process of making three entry sized doors for my finishing room, one with a full length wired glass panel. I've used floating tennons throughout, and so far, It's stronger than necessary, and was easily done.

Tom

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by Mike&L in reply to Anonymous [original] on Tue, 08/29/2006 - 19:27

Well here's another question regarding floating tenon. Broad side to mortise fit vs. narrow/curved side to mortise fit.

I know that having a tight fit along the broad side of the floating tenon and it's two mortises is very important.

Is it as important that the narrow or rounded side of the tenon fit into the mortise without any play at all as well? It is clear that making the broad sides fit tightly is not that hard. It is quite a bit harder to fit the curved narrow sides of the tennon to the curved sides of the mortise. The temptation is to leave that portion a little loose.

What say you, O ye wise ones?

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by Tom7 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Tue, 08/29/2006 - 19:35

That is a detail that I have not sweated. Given that I use the floating tenon to reinforce a cope and stick that already has some glue surface to it, I get close but don't worry it it is perfect. As I mentioned earlier, I add a a few 5/8" 18 gauge brads from the back and it will never ever come apart. I do take the time to round over the edges on the 1/4" MDF so it is a fairly good fit but don't worry about perfection.

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by Mike&L in reply to Anonymous [original] on Tue, 08/29/2006 - 19:56

Great, thanks!

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by lynford in reply to Mike&L [original] on Wed, 08/30/2006 - 02:56

I use floating tenons on all doors. I use a power hollow chisel mortiser so the corners are square. A long length of tenon material is cut on the table saw to exact size. I make the mortises after I do the coped edgeswhich means the depth must include the width of the cope overlap. A friend uses an FMT to make the mortises and uses a long bit to make the tenons. They fit beautifully but of course he can only make one tenon at a time.

Cheers

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by Mike&L in reply to Anonymous [original] on Wed, 08/30/2006 - 09:58

OK, I'm slow this morning - - FMT?

I can see where using a hollow mortiser would simplify making the stile mortise, and the square ends makes making the tenon fit much simpler, but how does one use a power hollow mortiser on the ends of the rails?

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by Trerecutouddy in reply to Mike&L [original] on Tue, 01/15/2013 - 12:39

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by BruceS in reply to Mike&L [original] on Tue, 01/15/2013 - 17:05

An easy alternative to the floating tennon might be to miter spline the corners or Miller dowel the corners after the initial glure up.

Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

Bruce S.

well may it be that some (post #106325, reply #14 of 14)

by cowtown in reply to Mike&L [original] on Thu, 02/07/2013 - 01:55

well may it be that some folks may not think it is worth the time and effort.

But to go cope and stick, you have to have an expensive set of cope and stick router bits. Fine may that be, but what happens when you cant find a bit set to match existing installation.

If you can find it, minimum 150 bucks, but chances are you can match the profile with yer router table from the plethora of router bits in yer tray!

So all you are faced with is matching the stile/-rail joint.

To do that, you make a mitre sadle that allows you to cut a perfect mitre with a few taps of a sharp chisel,, and you grind off the rest with a straight bit on the router table.

The floating tennon makes the joint, and is easy to do. .

Not a waste of time, the floating tenon jig involves a few simple WWing processes to be sure, but it saves the expense of cope and stick router bit sets/

Which somehow never seem to duplicate the profiles of the doors you have to match.

methinks yer buddy is not experienced enuf to see the persective I am sharing, nor has he likely had to pay the bills of custom made cope and stick router bitsor faced the disappointment when a 500 dollar custom ground set of cope and stick router bits just dont work. righr!!

I'd rather use what router bits I have, grind them a tad if necessary and use the floating tenon to do what i somehow end up doing.

Not a waste of time, them floating tenons, and in phyics, methinks they are stronger than cope and stick router bits sets.The leverage on the joint i s way less than cope and stick bit sets, and you can toss out any tenors where the graing ain't straight.

makes a lot of sense eh? Please tell me of the pitfalls.

Eric