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Mixing oil and water --- stones

Mixing oil and water --- stones (post #169659)

Recruiter on Thu, 01/26/2012 - 08:31

Hand Tools

Up until now, I have been using the scary sharp method of sharpening. It works OK, but the downside to the method is the amount of sandpaper you go through, over time.

I want to set up a more permanent setup for sharpening. I already have a medium India oilstone. I obviously have 2 options. Continue with all oilstones, getting a fine hard white Arkansas, an extra fine hard black Arkansas and maybe a transluscent Arkansas. My other option, obviously is waterstones. I would be purchasing a 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit stone, along with the flattening platen.

Beside the usual pros and cons, that can be argued for both methods, I'm simply wondering if I should worry about mixing the 2 systems, if I start with the India oilstone, then move on to waterstones.

Thanks

Dave

No Problem (post #169659, reply #1 of 9)

by Metod in reply to Recruiter [original] on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 05:14

Dave,

When you move from one stone to the next (finer grit) you have to wipe the iron/chisel anyway. Grit contamination is the problem, so avoid it. Just do not tell the next stone what kind of a stone was the previous one <g>.

Best wishes,

Metod

As a new convert to water (post #169659, reply #2 of 9)

by swenson in reply to Recruiter [original] on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:37

As a new convert to water stones my guess is you are going to like water stones so much you're going to stick with them alone. I got a combo 1000 / 8000 and a dead flat granite block to flatten. Last year FWW had a nice piece on building a jig to set the length that the irons protrude from a simple guide and several pages on using water stones and I chose that system and it works for me. Sharpening can be fun.

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Probably water (post #169659, reply #3 of 9)

by Recruiter in reply to swenson [original] on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 08:48

I will probably be converting my sandpaper to waterstones vs oilstones. I'll continue to use my medium India stone. No sense replacing it, if I already have it. My concern came about, from a curiosity whether there would be oil left on the blade or iron, even if wiped off, to contaminate a waterstone. Lets face it, oil and water don't mix.

Generally, before I make a switch in method like this, I look around at what a variety of other people use, especially those using it daily. The one thing I've found, most pro cabinetmaker/woodworkers/boatbuilders lean heavily on the waterstone side. The idea is to get a sharp edge, and do it quickly, so you can get back to work. Although oilstones sharpen just as well as waterstones, they are much harder, so the don't need flattening nearly as much, they also work much more slowly. Therefore, you are spending more time sharpening, and less time building, which is where I want to be.

Dave

Properly mixing oil stones with water stones (post #169659, reply #6 of 9)

by RalphBarker in reply to Recruiter [original] on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:11

To properly mix oil stones with water stones, I think you'll need the 4hp Binford blender. ;-)

FWIW, I use all three - oil, water, and diamond, depending on what I'm doing. I haven't tried the ceramic stones yet - too expensive for my budget.

My impression is that the Norton water stones are more robust than the Japanese water stones, and thus require less flattening. But, I like the edge that the Japanese stones produce, perhaps a little better than the edge created by the Nortons.

Another issue with oil stones is finding ones of the right size - especially with the Arkansas stones. The currently available Arkansas stones also don't seem to be of the same quality as the old (smaller) ones that I have.

For "getting back to work" quickly (which, I agree, should be the objective), don't forget the option of using a strop with diamond paste. Often, that provides a quick touch-up to the edge, eliminating the need to do a full re-sharpening.

I've been a full timer since (post #169659, reply #4 of 9)

by hammer1 in reply to Recruiter [original] on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 09:45

I've been a full timer since the 60's. I guess I've jumped on every band wagon that came along. Most of what is available today, wasn't in the past and new things are always coming out. I've gone through my sharpening obsession phase and I know what a fine working edge is all about. I've distilled my method to something relatively simple.

I'd rather not use oil in the shop. I can't say oil stones are particularly that great. They do get hollowed out in short time and are a bear to try to flatten. The results with my black Arkansas stone don't compare. If you accidentally drop a natural stone, they might break.

I have a picture of my system for straight blades. I use a honing guide now but I didn't for years and I also used to hollow grind but I reduced more than a few blades and chisels to a stump over time. Today, I'll only grind if an edge is badly broken or needs total reshaping.

I like diamond stones for quick shaping and removing nicks. I don't know where I bought my Japanese water stone. It says 1000 on the box. I don't soak it, just mist some water on it when using. It's still flat after many years and cuts quite quickly. I move from that to a thin piece of leather placed on a flat surface and charged with a fine metal polish. The strop compounds don't work that well or certainly not the same as the metal polish. I've used many, Simichrome, Mothers, just happen to have some blue nano polish at the moment. I leave the blade in the honing guide when I go to the leather. I get a mirror finish in a few strokes. I think the thin leather along with the smooth lubrication of the polish prevents rounding the edge. I can go back to the leather a couple of times as I use the tool. Wipe off the excess polish with mineral spirits. It doesn't take me more than a couple of minutes to sharpen a blade that isn't damaged and you don't want to make the mistake of trying to shave arm hair or you will get cut.

All my other stones, scary sharp paper, thick strops, compounds, etc. just sit in a drawer. I don't have any soaking tubs, no oil, no special area, no flattening plates, no diamond dust. I place the stones I use in my end vice, mist on a little water, make a few strokes, move to the Japanese then to the leather and am back to work. If I need to flatten the water stone, I'd just use the diamond stone but since I'm not making hundreds of strokes it just hasn't needed it. These have been on the job over 20 years often used weekly.

Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

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Combining the two may lead to (post #169659, reply #5 of 9)

by DonStephan in reply to Recruiter [original] on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 18:37

Combining the two may lead to oil on your waterstone, which doesn't sound good. Since reading the sharpening article by Denab Puchalski (sp?) at Lie Nielsen I use 80, 180, and 400 sandpaper for grinding with a honing jig, 1000 and 8000 waterstones for honing, and a 220 diamond plate to flatten the waterstones. the article may be on the company website.Except when I have to grind back the primary bevel on a wider cutting edge, this system is fast and easy for me. the sandpaper doesn't last long when grinding, but I've heard that metal's temper can change long before reaching the temperature to burn the metal.

4,000 to 8,000 (post #169659, reply #7 of 9)

by Bob talk in reply to DonStephan [original] on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 13:55

So would you all advise going from a 1,000 grit water stone to an 8,000 grit waterstone or from a 4,000 to an 8,000? I don't want to compromise results but I also want to spend wisely, and so if I can get away with buying just one combo stone (either 4-8 or 1-8) stone I will. The stones would be coming into play after grinding the bevel or lapping with 220 (maybe higher...?) sandpaper on glass.

Also any advice on Norton vs. japanese water (brand reccomendations)?

Oh heck . . . I don't really have an opinion about that but . . (post #169659, reply #8 of 9)

by roc in reply to Bob talk [original] on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 18:09

. . .

>Norton vs. japanese water (brand reccomendations)?<

http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-w...

I think in the end , from what I have read here, it is mostly how you hold your mouth when you sharpen. If you are really good you can use an old cinder block or the side walk.

Only . . .

I am not that good yet.

What ever you do . . . UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE USE WATER ON A BRAND NEW ARKANSAS STONE.

Really bad things could happen to the space time continuum. Really bad. Like . . . BAD.

I did that once and survived it but apparently I was lucky.

Very lucky.

roc

Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

Bad, Bad (post #169659, reply #9 of 9)

by Metod in reply to roc [original] on Mon, 01/30/2012 - 05:31

Roc,

"Really bad things could happen to the space time continuum."

Till now, I even could not imagine how bad 'bad' could get. Thankis for your warning - it was badly needed <g>.