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Rip cut without fence
Just watched the most recent episode of This Old House. Tom Silva(?) made an angled rip cut on his table saw without a fence. He did it totally freehand. This seems to be an incredibly dangerous practice. The chances of kick back go up significantly. Am I missing something? Does anyone think this can be done safely?
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Just to clarify (post #169485, reply #1 of 18)
He was cutting solid wood ?
In other words he wasn't cutting plywood ?
PS: was he using the blade guard with the hold down in the back ?
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Although potentially very (post #169485, reply #2 of 18)
Although potentially very dangerous, it's a technique that experienced saw operators sometimes use. I don't recommend it. The quality of the cut can be marginal, at best. A kickback could go anywhere. When finishing the last few inches it's a squint your eyes and hope for the best situation. It would only take a few minutes to set up a portable circular saw. The line could be freehanded or a guide could be used.
Tom is an experienced carpenter but being on TV has turned him into a "look how easy it is" type. Very diappointing. Instead of growing and advancing he has slipped backwards to a hack it, hide it, caulk it, corner cutter. You want to take most everything you see on the boob tube with a high level of skepticism and I mean everything, not just woodworking shows.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
This Old House (post #169485, reply #3 of 18)
Hammer
I respect your opinion but "Very Disappointing" for Tom is too strong. The guy is a craftsman at the highest level.
In regard to cutting without a fence - although folks do it - I strongly recommend against it. Dan - you can easily tack the board you want to cut to a sliding fence. Cut a board to ride against the fence 15 in. wide and 24 in. long. Draw the line to be cut and tack it shy of the line to the straight edge of the sliding fence that rides in front of the blade. Raise the blade high enough for the cut.
SA
this old house (post #169485, reply #11 of 18)
why? is Tom somehow not subject to the same safety issues because he is experienced? and showing that type of lack of concern for common safety practices on TV is irresponsible-
Safety (post #169485, reply #4 of 18)
IMHO Silva took a short cut on a table saw. With his collection of tools, I am surprised he didn't run to his Festool TS55 rail saw, that would have been my choice.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Short cut = short fingers (post #169485, reply #8 of 18)
I am what I would call an "experienced" operator, but I learned long ago to NOT try and freehand cuts on the TS. Its just not worth it - like Bruce and others stated, there are plenty of other tools to get the job done much safer with better cut quality.
The last time I tried to freehand a piece on my TS I caught it in the gut at about 1000MPH due to kickback, and that was a cut I had made many many times before.
Mistakes happen faster than you can blink, the tool has no conscience.
-Ian
I saw one of those (post #169485, reply #5 of 18)
I saw one of those re-modeling shows on HGTV where the young man was doing the same thing on a table saw with no splitter or guard. A few scenes later he was still cutting away, but he had a big ol' bandage on his right hand.
Tom was cutting solid wood (post #169485, reply #7 of 18)
Tom was cutting solid wood not plywood. He was not using a guard or any hold downs. It is hard to tell if there is a splitter.
Yep there is just no question then. Tommy using poor judgement (post #169485, reply #9 of 18)
>Tom was cutting solid wood not plywood. He was not using a guard or any hold downs. It is hard to tell if there is a splitter.<
I could kind of cut him some slack if he was cutting plywood with a hold down/guard but solid wood (ripping ?).
Tommy, Tommy, Tommy,
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Isn't this what caused Carlos (post #169485, reply #6 of 18)
Isn't this what caused Carlos Osorio to trade a couple fingers for $1.5M, and start the latest round of the CPSC deciding what we need?
rip cut without a fence!!! (post #169485, reply #10 of 18)
Isnt this just the type of cut that got Ryobi (and now the rest of us) in the recent court case concerning table saw safety- and contributing to the CPSC thinking about mandating new technologies for table saws....
Rip cuts should use a fence PERIOD. no one, no matter how experienced is exempt from the dangers inherent in that type of cut without a fence, let alone other safety equipment.
I dont know that i'd put (post #169485, reply #12 of 18)
I dont know that i'd put Tommy in the same class of Carpenters as Carlos. Admittedly, this is not a preferred method but it really is like using a portable saw (skillsaw) upside down. There is nothing trapped between the fence and the blade so kickback is minimized somewhat, at least to the level of a skillsaw. The end of the cut is the most dangerous so a good pushstick should be used. I feel like I'm comeing out of the closet here and saying that I do this sometimes and I'm ready for the barrage of attacks. Does anyone else do this at least sometimes (tell the truth)? BTW, I'd certainly never do this on TV or in front of the young and impressionable This is not a furniture making technique but is used in remodeling frequently. When an extension jamb is tapered or door casing meets an out of plumb wall is when it is used by skilled carpenters. I can usually freehand a cut 1/16 th to 1/8th outside the line and take the board to the jointer to clean it up and be done in minutes. I've never had a board kickback, sometimes it will bind a bit.
Please be gentle with me...........
YIKES (post #169485, reply #13 of 18)
EEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NEVER to the 10th power would I do it.
Just about as safe as cross cutting a 1"x6" x 18" and using the rip fence as your guide. Well this may be a bit more extreme than free handing a plywood rip. But you get my point.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Varying shades of gray. (post #169485, reply #14 of 18)
I can totally see taking a bit off one side. An amount that is too thin to ever be able to grip the back of the blade and teeth.
When the OP said rip I was picturing inches of stock on each side of the blade that could close on the blade and then be raised and flung like one of those spear tossing sticks propel a spear the bush dudes use for hunting.
(I am not sure it is possible to RIP plywood since the grain is going both ways at once so will just say cut playwood ).
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Spear chucker (post #169485, reply #15 of 18)
Your history lesson for the day and another tool name to put in the memory bank.
Atlatal (spear chucker)
One who is addicted to the History and Learning channels.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
One of our customers came in (post #169485, reply #16 of 18)
One of our customers came in today and so I put the question to him.
He is a successful high end ( million dollar plus ) home builder/remodeler. He always has a smile on his face, a truck with no dents and has been steadily busy for the last several years through all the problems of the economy etc.
I asked him if he and the crew ever rip stuff without using a fence and guard etc.
He said well yes often they have to cut to a line that is at an angle to the edge and so the fence isn't going to help.
He hasn't had a problem.
HE DOESN'T RECOMMEND ANYONE TRY THIS WHO IS JUST GETTING STARTED IN WOODWORKING.
He said a problem that he saw happen one time was when his boss was cutting a half inch or so off a board, had the narrow waste toward the fence , yes they were using the fence for this cut, and the blade caught the waste, shot it past the operator and it went through the garage door near where they were working.
So
There you go. For what it is worth. I think if I were in the field I would use a high quality jig saw or make up a taper cutting jig and if I were in the shop I would just use my nice bandsaw.
But the geter done pros, even the high end , smart , careful ones some times rip without using the fence.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Anecdotal info isn't worth (post #169485, reply #17 of 18)
Anecdotal info isn't worth much, regardless of who it comes from. When someone says they've been doing such and such for years and have never had a problem, it torques me to no end. The issue everyone should remember and take to heart is that questionable operations can and often do end a persons woodworking career along with ending their abilities to do a lot of things. Unfortunately, too many learn this the hard way. Wear a blindfold for a day or tape your fingers in a fist and see how you like it. I've been to the orthopedic surgeon, I don't recommend it. It's a heck of a lot more expensive and time consuming than taking a little extra step that keeps you from a ride to the ER. No job or procedure is worth taking a chance of altering the rest of your life. It's a fool that thinks they are different, are in control and can get away with it because they have many times before.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
As I said (post #169485, reply #18 of 18)
I won't be doing it.
> I think if I were in the field I would use a high quality jig saw or make up a taper cutting jig and if I were in the shop I would just use my nice bandsaw.<
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )